Caomhán Maccana: The Unseen Growth of Winter

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Episode transcript

Elizabeth Stack: Welcome everyone to In the Building in St John's Theatre with Elizabeth and I'm here today with Caomhán Maccana who is going to be performing in October. His new show, technically his first performance show, is called The Unseen Growth of Winter. Thank you, Caomhán, for joining me and you're up there on the Cavan/ Fermanagh border, so a long way from Kerry.

Caomhán Maccana: That's right, Elizabeth. Thank you for doing this, I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm looking forward to going back down to the Kingdom and seeing that wonderful county. I always said that if Ireland had 32 Kerrys, it'd be some country. That's true. No, but you have a terrific county there and I always look forward to going there.

Elizabeth Stack: Yeah, thank you. Well, that's great. I remember you down here, of course, during Writers' Week, so it was great to see you then. So, I just want to kind of get back into, we were talking a little bit offline, of course, about your roots in music. So, actually, before we talk about your work as a composer, was your family in your home particularly musical? You know, did you grow up as a child surrounded by music?

Caomhán Maccana: I did. My mother played the organ in the local church, which is actually just a mile down the road here. So, she had a choir, so that would be my earliest memory of music is going to hear her practice and perform. And do you know the little pedals on the organ? So, that was my first introduction to music, was the breath of the pedals of the organ in the church.

Elizabeth Stack: So, that's a kind of a visceral memory, you know, it's not just the visual, but also depending on how close you are to it, like you can feel sometimes the organ, you know, in your solar plexus sort of thing and to be aware of the percussive instrument kind of element of it.

Caomhán Maccana: I think so. It reminds me of Cormac Begley, you know, that he's that the ghost and the spirit and the wonder that he puts into that. There's a music within that breath that he has in his concertina playing, you know, that music is many, many different things. It's not just the notes, it's the air. I do believe that we have an orchestra, everybody has an orchestra in them or a music in them, and it is brought out to meet the music that is being played. So, there's a whole cacophony of senses and sounds within music, most of which we cannot put into language.

Elizabeth Stack: That's interesting given your work then, we were saying, you know, for the last 20 years you've actually been a composer and kind of a behind-the-scenes guy in terms of music. So, you've composed for documentaries and films and, you know, I was saying to you that for me the soundtrack can often make or break, you know, a film and obviously add so much to the tension or the atmosphere that the filmmaker is trying to produce visually. This aural component is very important. How did you find, you know, working on these soundtracks or, I presume, you know, you're commissioned to do a documentary about a certain topic, how do you decide, you know, what instrumentation you're g oing to use or that kind of thing?

Caomhán Maccana: Well, piano would be my main instrument, so I have done other percussions and various instruments like that. I suppose you just try to imagine the world that is being created and the listener and do your best to evoke something without intruding on the story, but you're right, I think that music can improve or disimprove a film or a radio piece tremendously, yeah. Any amount of examples of how music has improved or, as I say, disimproved a piece.

Elizabeth Stack: And would we know any, like, have you been involved with RTE or TNG, you know, documentaries?

Caomhán Maccana: I have to varying degrees with those and with BBC. I've produced dramas and documentaries and done some of the music for some or even most of those. I suppose the one piece that I'm particularly proud of in producing is a documentary called The Boys of St. Columbus.

Caomhán Maccana: I worked with many, many, many great people, Seamus Heaney and Seamus Dean and Paul Brady and some wonderful, wonderful people and that's a memorable.

Elizabeth Stack: That school, that's so many famous pupils, yeah. I think John Hume as well went there.

Caomhán Maccana: John Hume, of course, I'm proud to say that was the documentary, that was the last interview that John Hume did and I produced that film and it was very rewarding to understand the importance of education and the opportunity that education gave to those people in the 1950s, but also to all of us, you know, we're very, very lucky to be, to receive an education, many people don't.

Elizabeth Stack: And so you were saying it was on the death of your dad two years ago, unfortunately, that you kind of decided to transition out of staying behind the scenes as a composer and come out and perform, so like other people had performed your music maybe, but you had never performed in front of an audience really?

Caomhán Maccana: Yeah, I hadn't done that. I'm from a musical family and we all play music influenced by our mother and, but the passing of my father was a moment that I decided I was 50 years of age and I said, this year I'm going to perform in public for the first time and so I did that and it was well received and, you know, sometimes when you get the encouragement of an audience or it can really help you to go for it and, you know, we're on this life to challenge ourselves and I see this as a challenge, but also as one that is, what is it to say, fortune favours the brave, so you have to give these things a go and I've enjoyed it, I've played several times since and the music's been well received, so I'm very pleased with that.

Elizabeth Stack: That's funny, you know, in terms of being an introvert or an extrovert, some people, we just had a performance at the weekend with Niamh Strong and, you know, one of her band members was saying that the energy they get from the audience when it's reciprocal, you know, can be really brilliant that, you know, the band are there, the audience are right there with them and I presume that there is kind of a charge that you get if you're a performer, you know, and then I wonder for you as someone who was used to just maybe working in a studio or by yourself, is that sometimes disconcerting that there's an audience out there listening and copping and moving or, you know, how do you, do you enjoy the process of performing, I mean?

Caomhán Maccana: It's hard to answer that question to be honest, the experience of being with other people in a room is, I enjoy it, but it's a strange moment, you know, to be playing in front of people and because what I'm doing in my music is I'm telling a story, I'm communicating something, I'm trying to convey some of my spirit to the people that are sitting there and, you know, they've been kind enough to buy a ticket and turn up on a wedding tonight, so what I'm looking for for them when they leave is to have experienced something that is unique, something that is unique and memorable and I think that my music comes from different sources, it's, there's some Celtic elements there, there's some classical elements, there's also some eastern elements there as well, so I like the idea that an audience, whether they're age 12 or whether they're aged, you know, 92, they experience something and just in relation to the type of music I play, I do have this thing that, I mean, the piano is a percussion instrument, so it's not just about the notes, it's about the rhythm, it's about the breath in between, it's about the silence, it's about the sustain, it's, there's an awful lot happening in, you know, the piano is such a beautiful instrument anyway, you just have to play a chord and it already starts to speak to you, so you have a responsibility then to create a rhythm and tell a story.

Elizabeth Stack: You know, that's very striking, I'm thinking about almost the vulnerability kind of of you on the stage and at the same time then the dichotomy of something that's deeply personal, you know, you've written this about you, your influences or, as you said, to express your spirit and yet an audience is able to somehow internalise it and kind of make it their own as well, you know, like there's something about music that allows you to maybe, you know, communicate on a different level and then because the audience take it in, it sort of is their memory then, you know.

Caomhán Maccana: Yeah, I mean, there's a piece that I play, it's actually quite a simple piece, but it comes from a memory that I have of being a young boy and I was in my sister's room, you know, the way I, as a young person, as a young, you explore and you go out into everywhere, but going into my sister's room and she had this music box, you know, those little box with the little dancer, the ballerina, yeah, and this was, you know, back in the day you didn't have phones and you didn't have all, so the idea of a piece of music, you know, because you only had a couple of channels on the TV, you speed it up and then you slow down. So, all of those experiences, it's a very vivid memory that I have and then sometimes with the little wind-up thing, if you forced it, you know, you could, it goes faster. So, all of those introductions to music are, I think they're.

Elizabeth Stack: Yeah, they're kind of formative, I think you do remember the first time you hear certain types, you know, and so you were saying the influences on your music and I suppose not just you, maybe, but we talked about the eastern influence, I suppose, you know, funnily enough, the harp, like it was, I think, an ancient Egyptian, it is an eastern instrument and of course now it's our national instrument, you know, so there are eastern elements that influence the language, not to mind, you know, the music. So, this idea, like, that we brought it maybe with us or it came across the continents centuries and centuries, millennia ago, you know, it's an older music, maybe, than we think.

Caomhán Maccana: I think so, yeah, the idea that we come from a European classical sense, I'm not so sure, I'm paraphrasing here, but that the origin of Irish music may be more oriental or eastern than European classical and I think that's true, there are rhythms in the eastern music, very, very similar to what you would hear in the Irish music and, you know, some of that, I mentioned Conrad Begley earlier, but when you hear Martin Hayes hopping off the strings of his fiddle into some ether, it's not European classical, you know, there's something that's going on there that, you know, could be, as Bob Quinn might say, North African or Bob Quinn also taught that the influences were more eastern or North African. So, that idea that the piano is a percussion instrument, so essentially they're all little drums, you're creating something from drums, you know, they're all little drums, which I doubt the great European composers would have agreed with, but there were different times, you know, that maybe simpler times as they say, but those complex arrangements of the European composers, brilliant, brilliant compositions. Nowadays, there's been a movement towards a minimalist approach to music, Arvo Pärt is probably the most obvious example of that and greatest example. I saw him one day on the street in Tallinn in Estonia, I was over there for a few times doing a few things and just to see Arvo Pärt there in his hometown was a lovely experience. I got to see his concert then later that evening. How minimalist his stuff is and the rhythm that comes into it is brilliant and so this neoclassical minimalist approach I think is available to us now and I think, you know, the world is so busy, everybody's busy as they say and the idea of being in a room, listening to a composer, communicating something within him, I think is an experience that is different, you know, there are lots of mobile phones and laptops and screens, but there's something missing in all of that, I believe. That's my personal experience, others may not agree with me, but I think the idea of listening to somebody play their music is like listening to somebody telling a secret or listening to somebody tell a story and those things which are inherently Irish, I think, you know, the idea of having a cup of tea with somebody, having a conversation with somebody, if you've ever been, and I'm sure you have, where somebody sings a verse of a song or says a poem, it's a wonderful thing, you know, that people have that within them to embrace their artistic and creative and storytelling side. I think that the Irish are, we know all about that, I would hope that people coming to my concert would be encouraged to keep open the pages of their own creative story, you know, whether they're an older person or a younger person starting out, that storytelling, music, all of these things are open to all of us. I think that I certainly am enjoying expressing myself in front of an audience through the music. I mean, I'd say, if anything, our phones are almost kind of a distraction, aren't they, from you know, being able to go inside and dwell on things maybe, you know, like the algorithm is set up to keep you scrolling and the attention span, you know, is so shortened, so to sit in the dark and, you know, effectively read someone's diary when they're listening to you play music, you know, it is a great insight, I think.

Elizabeth Stack: That brings me, Caomhán, into talking about the title we said of your concert is The Unseen Growth of Winter, and you were saying that was, you know, specifically meaningful about your own transition, you know, from kind of composer and producer to artist and performer.

Caomhán Maccana: Yeah, I came across this phrase in a book one time, The Unseen Growth of Winter. I can't find a reference to it now, but it struck me as the power of language for good and for bad is obvious, but The Unseen Growth of Winter just made me realise that there's another similar phrase is that sometimes a good thing can be a bad thing, and sometimes a bad thing can be a good thing, you know, we can misunderstand moments in our lives and catastrophise things, and we can get sad about things or despondent about things, but I suppose I would be of the opinion that for the last 20 or 30 years perhaps I should have been performing live, and I haven't, so therefore it was a kind of a winter period where the roots of my performance were starting to grow, and rather than looking at that as being a wasted time or a sad time, I see it as a strengthening of the roots, so that when I perform the notes that I play, the chords that I play, they come from a very hardened place, or maybe hardened is the wrong word, earned.

Elizabeth Stack: So that's interesting, you know, I suppose you're kind of implying in one way, and I'm not wanting to put more words in your mouth, but like it doesn't come easy either, you know, this idea that, oh you're hit with inspiration, and you know, you just doddle off a tune, you know, there is a kind of a, not cost, but earned, as you say, like you have to earn the ability maybe to express yourself or to write exactly what it is you're trying to communicate, is that right or fair to say?

Caomhán Maccana: Yeah, yeah, and there are different approaches to playing music. A concert pianist might spend 8-10 hours a day rehearsing a piece, and it is a brilliant performance with all the little nuances in there, but then you have other people like perhaps Frank Zappa, who every night was something different. He played his pieces differently based on what he knew, how he was a brilliant musician and a brilliant songwriter, but when he went against the grain, Frank Zappa of course, but he, so there are different ways of presenting the music, so when I perform, I do write my music, but there's different energies every night, different tempos, you have to feel the room and sometimes pieces change, they become a little bit slower, they become a little bit faster, or the strength that you play them might require in the moment to play them harder. Some of my pieces are, there's one there, Half the Battle, and it's quite a hard piece, so sometimes I play that very, very raw and other times I play it quite gently, because the notes are already pronounced. Yeah, I enjoy, sometimes you go out and you don't know how you're going to play a particular piece, so I welcome that thing in the audience, that they're clued into that. Here is a composer who has written something, but are they going to play it with the gusto and the spirit that it should be played or is it going to be played safe? It's a challenge for me that I welcome.

Elizabeth Stack: I suppose that's where kind of the freedom, will I call it, of traditional and maybe more eastern, you were talking about the structure to classical music and of course it's pieta forte or they tell you in the music how to play it and what notes to stress and there's specific beats per bar and so maybe there's a little bit of a structural difference too to your own classical pieces, because it's inspired by these other traditions too.

Caomhán Maccana: Yeah, and I remember when I learned piano up to grade four.

Elizabeth Stack: Oh yeah, right, I gave up too. Well yeah, the rigidity of the exam systems and you're playing pieces you've never heard before and I was like, I can't play a song that anyone knows, you know.

Caomhán Maccana: This is the point and I think that's one of the reasons why people are turned off by piano and I would hope that if young people come to my concerts that they would be encouraged to see that the rigidity of a wonderful piano sonata or whatever it is, is not there. There are chords one can play and rhythms you can get in a piano that sing very, very high and you don't need the rigidity of those classical grade one, grade two, grade eights, but that comes from somebody who only did grade four, so I might be slightly biased in my opinion on that. But...

Elizabeth Stack: I suppose applying discipline of it is great, but yeah, you know, when you're 17 and you can't play a song, you know, it's a bit disheartening.

Caomhán Maccana: But I would be of the opinion that most people can play the piano, most people can p lay the piano. You don't need to be able to play a Rachmaninoff to say that you're a pianist. There are many great musicians out there on different instruments who are not...

Elizabeth Stack: Like technically prodigious sort of, yeah.

Caomhán Maccana: They're not technical masters, but they can evoke a spirit and an emotion and that's really what music ultimately is for, right, is to evoke the emotion. And I have got different emotions within my pieces. Some of them, as I said, are silent or are quiet and there are silent moments in them that allow people to reflect and others are more of a battery, there's something to be said. I've got pieces, one of the pieces I've written is called The Rising and it's related to what I imagine the spirit of Ireland is looked at by Countess Markievicz and Roger Casement and Patrick Pearse, and Of course, Sean McDiarmada would be our local hero here up on the border from County Leitrim because, you know, very often we look at Irish history in very black and white terms that it's, well, is it political or is it historical? But what those men and women did a century ago came from a Gaelic or a Celtic or a primal belief in the way that the world works. They stood up and it's like the wildflower in the wasteland. The wildflower in the wasteland doesn't ask permission to grow. It's a remarkable sight to see in a black, gloy soil, a flower, one flower growing by itself. That, you know, should give us all inspiration to live.

Elizabeth Stack: Well, I think that's the perfect place to end our little podcast. I'm very excited to have you on Wednesday the 14th of October. I hope that this little insight into your work and your process will encourage people to come along and obviously we're in for a treat of classical, slightly trad, slightly eastern influenced and a really good insight, I think, into your art, Caomhán. So thank you so much for joining me in the building.

Caomhán Maccana: You're welcome, no I look forward to, I think Kerry is the perfect place to be starting off the tour. It's 16 days altogether and the final one is in Derry, so it's Kerry to Derry, we organised it that way, so I'm delighted to be going back and look forward to meeting you and all the great people in the Kingdom.

Elizabeth Stack: Great. Well, thank you very much.